devo's volleyball – Australian volleyball: news and views

MAVL – finals teams

Posted by devo on November 16, 2009

AVLlogoThe final four places for the Men’s Australian Volleyball League has been revised due to a computer error. Apologies for the inconvenience that this has caused to teams, particularly to those teams effected. We have identified the cause of the issue within the calculation system and this has been rectified. We will be seeking to review the Tournament Regulations to ensure that appropriate strategies are put in place to better enable the calculation of final placings (for example, moving to three decimal places in points and set ratios).

QAS Pirates and AIS have clearly finished first and second, respectively. The remaining two spots have resulted in a three-way tie between Uni Blues, WA Hornets and UTSSU. An error in the computer system had incorrectly calculated the points ratio for each of the teams. The final positions of the Men’s AVL competition at the end of preliminary rounds is as follows:

Team Played Won Lost Pts Pt Won Pt Played Ratio Set Won Total Sets Ratio
QAS Pirates 10 8 2 26 918 1786 0.51 26 40 0.65
AIS 10 7 3 24 869 1646 0.53 26 37 0.70
WA 10 4 6 18 806 1650 0.49 16 36 0.44 now 4th
UTSSU 10 4 6 18 794 1614 0.49 16 36 0.44 now 3rd
Uni Blues 10 4 6 18 855 1735 0.49 16 38 0.42
Heat 10 3 7 16 773 1624 0.48 12 37 0.32

We appreciate people’s passion and commitment to the Men’s AVL competition and we thank you for your understanding and continued support of this competition.

Susan Diver-Tuck – Competitions & Events Manager – Volleyball Australia

62 Responses to “MAVL – finals teams”

  1. Robbo said

    Never a good situation to be in when this kind of thing happens. Tough for Blues to take, but in the end lets hope its a good finals series in Melbourne, even though there will be no home team playing.

  2. Tony said

    this is going to be a bitter pill to swallow…..after losing the game to WA yesterday afternoon we were shattered to think how close the final race would be only to find out 10 minutes later that we had made it…we knew we had a lot of hard work to do in the 3 weeks to turn it all around and put up a good showing in the finals series….what a way to find out that our chance to prove we can beat the best teams in the country will never come…
    absolutely heart broken!

    • Yaegan said

      I’m really sorry about this Tony. I know how you feel being shattered as it was how I felt yesterday when we found out we had missed out. Obviously we asked for the recount out of self interest, but we shouldn’t have been put in this situation.

    • random said

      you’ve had three rounds to prove that you can beat these teams… why start in the final round?

      • Tony said

        for your info “random” we’ve beaten all of the teams in the comp bar one who finished on top of the ladder….the problem was consistency! with the roster changing every round it is difficult to find a balance and we had hoped we’d get another chance to prove our worth with an full and fit squad in front of a home crowd in Melbourne. i guess we’ll never know…

  3. Joe said

    what a joke, typical avf

  4. Joe said

    let’s count the problems with this comp … the game in queensland, sending teams across the country to not play wa, giving teams the last night game followed by first game the next morning, and now they can’t even add up properly. time for a rebel comp by people who know what they are doing.

  5. Joe said

    or here is a novel idea … blow off this expensive joke of a competition and bring back national seniors / good neighbour to decide who the best state and best club are.

  6. WiG said

    computers do not make errors, people do

  7. Pierre Montgomery said

    Rumour has it that AVF deliberately made this ‘mistake’ as a cost cutting exercise. Projections of costs for crowd control were increased by 2350% when factoring in the AVSC girls sitting at the same courts which Yaegan Doran (the world’s most beautiful volleyballer in the world) would be playing.

    A conservative forecast if I ever saw one!

    Unfortunately for AVF, due to Yaegan Doran’s good looks and his mathematical acumen, AVF will have to spend some serious money to keep the girls back so that Yaegan is free to make beautiful volleyball.

  8. Damian Natas said

    Anti-UTSSU sentiments look to be through the roof at AVF. Why is it now UTSSU are classified as 4th behind WA. It doesn’t make a difference in the draw, but UTSSU has a better points difference and should be classified 3rd. The AVF needs to cease its vendetta on the Sydney siders.

    1. Do not allow a Sydney round in 09 AVL – and also deny the Sydney team equalisation claiming Canberra is their ‘home round’
    2. Allow QLD to play an entire match with an illegal player against UTSSU and yet UTSSU are not given the win as a result of the technical infringement – rather a decision is made with total disregard for the rulebook to replay the match (despite tournament regs saying replays are not permitted).
    3. Force UTSSU to pay money to protest the fact that QLD had fielded an illegal player – when it should not have even needed to be protested.
    4. Try to eliminate UTSSU from the finals despite their legitimate claim to a spot in the top 4 and then use a ‘computer error’ as an excuse.
    5. Try to demoralise the UTSSU team by implying they scraped in finishing 4th when really they finished ahead of WA in total points difference and percentage points difference and are entitled to claim 3rd place.

    This many mistakes against one club in one season is unacceptable. Too many to be a coincidence methinks. AVF should at the very least claim they are incompetent and refund UTSSU their money. It has been a total disgrace to volleyball.

  9. Joe said

    From memory there were people on this site who wanted to give the AVF complete control of volleyball in Australia. Great idea guys!

  10. Caveman said

    Well it just goes to show …. Sometimes you can’t please everyone…and …sometimes you can’t please ANYONE.
    All these people saying that they can do better… I bet when it comes right done to it the usual applies … all talk NO ACTION.

  11. Troy M said

    just randomly was thinking about this… but i was wondering why AIS and Canberra Heat’s values were correct and the other 4 teams were wrong… i would have thought if the computer was making a mistake it would have been consistent across the teams

  12. Ezra said

    all I’ve got for that is WOW guys…. way to go for the jugular, guess you guys are just perfect and never make mistakes…. which is fine if you ARE perfect, you CAN expect perfection from others if you are also perfect yourself.

    On a side note…. as long as they got it right then who cares…. a couple of hours delay to get the right results, most sides would easily put that behind them and focus on the finals.

    • Joe said

      It goes to the credibility of the league and the organizers… both is pretty much zero. If this was the one time there was a screw up for the season then people woould be more inclined to let it pass, but this just caps off multiple errors … actually I doubt it caps them off, the AVF will find a way to stuff something up at the finals as well no doubt.

      To recap …
      1. Not enough refs at Queensland.
      2. The “replay”.
      3. Having teams fly all the way to WA and then not play WA, thus significantly increasing the cost of the league in an environment where players pay to play.
      4. Having Uni Blues play the last Friday night game and the first Saturday morning game in Canberra.
      5. Calling Canberra a home game for UTSSU and charging them accordinly despite the fact that team would still have travel costs.
      6. Having a ladder system that stops at two decimal places thus increasing the chances that teams would be tied while also not following well established FIVB tie-breaker rules.

      And then after all that they can’t even input scores into a computer properly.

      I don’t think it is unreasonable to call out the AVF for such a poor effort running what is supposed to be the most elite men’s volleyball competition in Australia and that players have paid a significant amount of money to participate in.

      Ezra, it is not about expecting perfection, it is about expecting competency.

      Caveman, it is easy to please people. Allow teams to turn up to a venue and play volleyball in a professionally managed environment without having to endure constant mistakes.

      Alexis makes a good point below, the teams that are in the finals are the ones that deserve to be there and congratulations to them. This isn’t about sour grapes, it is about raising the bar for Australian volleyball and expecting a certain level of quality from the AVF … which they show time and time again they are incapable of meeting.

      • Troy M said

        Some pretty valid points Joe. I think as the costs of a competition increase, the expectations of competency does too. If I am playing in a state cup competition then some of this stuff you can take because its only costing you maybe $50-$100 for the weekend… But when players are paying over $500 for a weekend you expect mistakes to be small and less frequent.

      • Caveman said

        The ref issue in Queensland was not caused by the AVF at all, it was caused by the Queensland referee who was in charge.

        • Troy M said

          I think the QLD Referees would have something diff to say…

        • Joe said

          It is an AVF event, it is up to the AVF to satisfy its customer base. Don’t pass the buck on to someone else, it is the AVF’s responsibility to ensure the event is managed properly. How about assisting the QLD referee (who you have just thrown under a bus, which I am sure he will be happy about) with staffing requirements.

          Whether you like it or not it is the AVf brand on the event, so it is the AVF that is accountable when things go wrong.

          • Ezra said

            with the referee’s in QLD…. the AVL round clashed with our Junior Schools Cup Tournament, with the AVRC rep up in far north QLD and out of contactable range, nothing got done until the last week. I’d like to call it a lack of communication but someone had to put their hand up and organise it.

            There is a background story to the ref issue but it is not my position to say what it was. Bottom line for me is that there needs to be more communication between AVF and VQ and QAS… I don’t believe there was any.

            Subsequently we had 2 referee’s that round, I did 8 games out of the 10 and Carla did 7.

            I don’t mind everyone not playing WA in WA… not everyone played QAS in QLD and same for every round, I think the draw was set up fine. Except for the last game first game issue, I agree shouldn’t happen.

            I just figured UTS didn’t get a home round this season… so I agree with you there.

            I agree with pretty much everything written above… I disagree with the emotive comments that have been bandied around, I understand people are pretty upset with certain things (pi**ed off could be more accurate lol) but to improve our top level volleyball competition, AVF needs constructive, Objective criticism that they can use to improve.

  13. devo said

    Let’s keep this nice guys or I’ll cut the comments. Stick to the facts – leave the emotion at home.

  14. Anon said

    Quick question- why is it that WA has finished 3rd above UTSSU?

    • devo said

      match 1: WA def UTSSU 3-1 (96-86)
      match 2: WA lost to UTSSU 0-3 (64-76)

      If the tie still exists after the calculation of the Sets Ratio, the order of ranking will be determined on the basis of aspects of matches completed between the tied teams.

      matches won equal
      sets 4-3 UTSSU
      points 162-160 UTSSU

      Unless the scores on the AVL site are wrong.
      Or the AVF took other aspects of the matches completed into account.

      • Dad said

        ‘If the tie still exists after the calculation of the Sets Ratio, the order of ranking will be determined on thebasis of aspects of matches completed between the tied teams.

        Coin Toss

        If the tie still exists after the calculation of Sets Ratio, a coin toss will be used to separate the tied teams.
        The team that wins the Coin Toss will be awarded the higher placing in the round robin.’

        Which is as clear as mud. What would happen ‘if the tie still exists after the calculation of the Sets Ratio’?

        Do we look at ‘aspects of matches completed between the tied teams’ (and just what and how do we look at?), or do we go straight to the coin toss? And were we playing a round robin?

        As I posted before, the current AVL regs are not clear. Maybe we had a coin toss. My I respectfully suggest to Susan that we adopt across the board the FIVB regs, and please do not go down a path of ‘moving to three decimal places in points and set ratios’.

        Rounding, cost Uni Blues their spot:they did have a better points ratio.

        Under the finals format of 1v2, 3v4, who was 3rd, and who was 4th does not really matter in this case, but it could have been. the current rules are not clear how this would have been determined.

        • Joe said

          Just sloppy by the AVF, no other way to put it. We were considering trying to put a team in next year to create more opportunity for players in our state, but I and the other guys who were tossing the idea around have lost all faith in the system and are pretty sure we would just be throwing our player’s hard earned money out the window. Might take a team to NZ for a tournament instead. Sure to be more enjoyable and far better managed.

        • devo said

          @ Dad
          As you say, it does not matter if you finish 3rd or 4th. But in the interests of being seen to have done the right thing, and to stop people from jumping to conclusions, the AVF should let people know how decisions have been made.

          I agree with you that moving to 3 decimal places is just going to allow this same situation to arise again in the future, less likely, but possible. And when it may mean the difference between 2nd and 3rd spot. Remove the rounding.

          And yes, why not just adopt the FIVB rules.Why do we need a local rule here?

        • Troy M said

          If things are considered on the ‘basis of aspects’:
          – UTSSU had a better set and point ratio,
          – UTSSU achieved 1:1 without a home game,
          – UTSSU beat WA in WA after stepping off a 5 hour flight,
          – WA beat UTSSU in QLD on the Saturday after both teams had a chance to rest after their flights (although WA had a longer flight)
          – The 2dp consideration is only for the direct comparison of points differences – there is no statement indicating additional decimal places cannot be considered once things get to this stage and UTSSU had a better points ratio.

          I don’t understand how these aspects could be disregarded for a coin toss if that was what was used, and I am not familiar with any other aspects that would work in WA’s favour.

          Like it has been said, it doesn’t really matter who finishes 3rd and 4th, but what would happen if say Uni Blues had beaten AIS in round 2 or QLD in round 1? Then UTSSU/WA would have been fighting for 4th/5th and who would have got through then?

          Alternately if last years finals format was used where 1st played 4th and 2nd played 3rd in the semis, it would have made a difference also.

          I think it is better if the protocols are sorted out now when they don’t really matter as much, rather than waiting until we get into a situation when they do matter and having to try and resolve it amongst angry/frustrated people

          • Troy M said

            (For the 1st point I meant UTSSU had a better point/set ratio against WA)

            Also if the protocols are clearly defined now, they can be enforced objectively, unlike with the QLD/UTSSU replay which had people claiming that there was bias in the decision – because it was a subjective decision made without following any black and white protocols.

  15. Alexis said

    As someone who coached a team in the AVL who missed out on the finals on point percentage/countback/whatever, all I can say is what I said at the time: we didn’t miss out because we lost 6 points more than the other team, we missed out because we didn’t win enough matches. So commiserations to the team/s who missed out, congratulations to the team/s who made it.

  16. The Hoff said

    On a lighter note…

    Does anyone know if any of the finals matches will be televised and/or streamed online?

  17. ausvolley said

    It has been bought to our attention that the incorrect order of 3rd & 4th finishing place in the Men’s AVL was posted on our website yesterday, this has been corrected,

    This oversight does not change who will be playing in the Major and Minor Semi-Finals and we encourage all those that are in the Melbourne area to come down to Melbourne Sports & Aquatic Centre to watch the games;

    Major Semi-Final: QAS Pirates (1) v AIS (2) – 12 midday Saturday 5th December
    Minor Semi-Final: UTSSU (3) v WA Hornets (4) – 2pm Saturday 5th December.

    • Troy M said

      Can I ask how it was decided that UTSSU and WA were switched in position?
      (eg did AVF consider point ratio to another decimal place, was it toss of a coin, was ‘it consideration of basis of aspects of matches played’, etc)

      and will the process to decide that positioning be incorporated into future tournament regulations?

      • devo said

        I assume on the basis of:
        match 1: WA def UTSSU 3-1 (96-86)
        match 2: WA lost to UTSSU 0-3 (64-76)

        If the tie still exists after the calculation of the Sets Ratio, the order of ranking will be determined on the basis of aspects of matches completed between the tied teams.

        matches won equal
        sets 4-3 UTSSU
        points 162-160 UTSSU

      • devo said

        The AVF site suggests that they are looking to changes for next year. I agree with Dad‘s comment, that the adoption of the FIVB rules, rather than a local rule, would be the best result of ny review.

        • random said

          agreed… is the biggest volleyball comp we have with players from our National team and from professional teams playing… to have the view that it is a top level competition we should be using the top level rules instead of local “state league” adaptations

        • The Hoff said

          Agreed. Consistency is what is required.
          Why not leave the creation of rules to the international body who does it best?
          If we are indeed trying to create an elite competition, then I don’t see any reason to be different…

          …except for 12 sub rule… next year please?
          …Even the Hoff gets tired sometimes…

          • Volleyball Athlete said

            I agree with you there. I think the only rule that should be different is using the 12 sub rule instead of the 6 sub rule.

            • Yaegan said

              I don’t think simply going with the FIVB rules all the way is appropriate… I really can’t see us having technical timeouts each match, however I think it should be a base to start from, with each individual variation with their rules having a clear cut reason.

              In relation to he 12 sub-rule, I agree entirely. Being an amateur competition, each athlete pays for their spot in the team. By using the 12 sub rule, there is more scope to use these players so that their money is not spent sitting on the bench. Moreover,with the 12-sub rule, increased specialisation will occur, resulting in higher quality matches.

              • The Hoff said

                Just one more thought… Devo seems to be where the stakeholders talk about what they want out of the competition… I wonder how much kudos avf give to the discussions here when making decisions? There is a great opportunity here for customer feedback which many commercial companies never get the chance for!

              • Dad said

                12 Sub rule…don’t know.

                The 6 sub rule does not stop a coach playing all his roster in a match, and with 2 liberos, or libero per set, even liberos can have equal time.

                But coaches like to win, and your ‘starting six’ tends to stay on a bit more than the bench.

                Some coaches end up using 12 sub for tactical reasons, more so than for reasons based on equity.

                Not sure how 12 sub leads to ‘increased specialisation will occur, resulting in higher quality matches.’?

                Technical Time outs. If we could get away from this daft Grand Prix format we might be able to have enough time to have them.

                • Yaegan said

                  By specialisation I mean that it allows for greater use of passing/serving subs, possibly a more regular double sub of the setter and opposite, to keep a backcourt setter and other tactics like that. This would increase the standard of the game, or at least not lessen it, as if it did lower the standard, the coach would not use it.
                  Also, by allowing for someone to enter the court more than once, it means that players who are serving or passing subs aren’t limited to only a couple of points a set. Obviously the starting six will still get much more time on court, but it allows the coach to vary their team more frequently if they choose.

                  • Joe said

                    State Leagues – 12 sub (they are about participation, are not elite).

                    Junior Comps (inluding nationals) – 12 sub (they are about talent id and participation, so the more kids hitting the court the better).

                    AVL – 6 sub (it is supposed to be the pathway to higher honours for players, coaches and referees … all should have a chance to participate using international rules so they are used to those rules when getting to higher honours).

                    • The Hoff said

                      Fair enough argument…
                      Not sure whether i would consider MAVL a pathway personally, but a valid point nonetheless

                    • Ezra said

                      agree with Joe here, 6 subs, if your setter isn’t strong enough to play the entire rotation then there’s a good chance they aren’t strong enough to play AVL

                    • Yaegan said

                      Yep, fair enough. I don’t agree, but its a valid point. Though as the Hoff said, MAVL isn’t a pathway to a higher level (I’m pretty thats been made clear) but WAVL is, so I’m not sure how you go about it there.

                      By the way, its refreshing to have a discussion where people all have valid points, agree to disagree and not get angry or insulting.

                    • devo said

                      @ Yaegan

                      devo breaths big sigh of relief. And agrees.

                    • maybe you should make the AIS team play 6 sub rule and everyone else can play 12 sub rule.

                    • Morky said

                      Having said that though, the US college system is a pathway to the US national team and they play modified rules
                      eg. unlimited subs, serving libero, sets to 31 etc.
                      Their competition is considered elite, yet they have adopted changes and the players coming from college going to national duties certainly have no issues adpating back to a 6 sub and sets to 25.

                      Why not ask the athletes what they want, since they are the ones paying for the league? I am sure a vast majority would would want court time for the investment of their time and money. Have a poll and see how many would like 12 sub. If you asked 100 players that if they had to invest 100’s of hours and between $1000 and $3000 dollars to play 3 weekends of volleyball, would they expect to get on court? what would you expect the answer to be? If it was a professional sport in Australia and the athletes did not have to pay a cent (or were paid to compete), I’m sure they wouldn’t care (as much) By not having 12 subs, players are not coming back to play year in year out. They usually spend their first season on the bench after having paid thousands and don’t come back. We need to increase the participation in our sport, not drive people away. The more people we get playing at a higher level, the bigger and better the sport becomes.

                      I also wouldn’t consider MAVL a pathway to the higher duties. The staff at the AIS do a pretty good job of scouting potential athletes before they are seen at AVL. The only exception I can think of is Luke Smith. I think 99% of the athletes competing in AVL have no chance of ever making the Senior Men’s team (obviously with the exception of the AIS squad)

                    • Joe said

                      Players perhaps not, but how many coaches and referees have cut their teeth on AVL and then gone on to referee/coach internationally?

                      I am sympathetic to both views, particularly while people pay to play, and also do not disagree that most players have been id’d at nationals and schools cup way before they play AVL.

                    • Joe said

                      … plus good point from Yaegan re the women have a stronger correlation between AVL and the national team.

                    • Joe said

                      Don’t mind the AIS having to play 6 sub and everyone else play 12 at all. While it puts them at a competitive disadvantage in this competition, if winning AVL is the major aim for the AIS then there is something wrong!

                  • devo said

                    Okay, I’m closing this conversation off. I will start another post on AVL to replace it.

                    I will also run a series of polls. Hit the Contact Devo tab at the top of the page to let me know what questions you want asked.

  18. Beentheredonethat said

    I wonder if Beach Volleyball experience these type of issues with their top level competitions. I’m going to take a punt and suggest they don’t.

    Perhaps the escalating issues we’re seeing in the AVL are a result of the continued lack of funding for indoor volleyball in Australia.
    Maybe the AVF could shave a few hundred thousand off the millions they provide to Beach (money that’s used to pay the administrators and coaches, of which there are more than athletes on scholarship), and invest it in indoor volleyball, where it is so clearly needed.

    Seeing all the issues with AVL this year, it’s no wonder Crawford has recommended moving money away from such incompetence.

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